#1
To make a good map (not saying anything about a pretty map) for this game, we have to know where the teams will meet, where are the good spots, where does most of the action happen at the start of a round, et cetera.


Every great map in any game always got noticed for its quality due to good enough bot AI to tell the mapmaker where the important areas to improve or restructure are. The mapmaker would spend a long time watching bots rush through the map and then focus on making the biggest action spots more fun and interesting.


I just started a 10v10 bot game on Siege and even after setting all base timings and frac factors to zero as well as bot difficulty to 3 (which I assume is the highest instead of zero because there's nothing in the documentation explaining this stuff at all) the bots just run around in circles at the spawn, then stand still facing away from the enemy once they get out into an open area.


It's pretty useless.


As it stands right now, the only possible way to refine a map concept is to have a network of more than 10 reliable friends who are both competent at playing the game and are willing to derp around with your bullshit map you probably won't finish anyway for many hours at a time.


It's not possible to create a good map without better bot AI.



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The game itself is great. I'm just saying that we as a community cannot produce any quality content (at least for maps) until this one essential thing is given the attention it deserves.
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#2
Quote:It's not possible to create a good map without better bot AI.
 

lol, i wonder where the official maps and some of the very good custom maps come from then?

 

also, where did the original ins maps come from?

 

you try to blame somebody else for your lack in map creating ability... foul move.
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#3
Quote:lol, i wonder where the official maps and some of the very good custom maps come from then?

 

also, where did the original ins maps come from?
 

I already explained that.  Maybe you didn't read the OP.

 

Quote: 

As it stands right now, the only possible way to refine a map concept is to have a network of more than 10 reliable friends who are both competent at playing the game
 
IIRC, the developers had a lot more than 10 people to help playtest their maps over a much longer period of time.  Plus, they were themselves able to play it together even without beta testers outside of their own group.

 

Quote: 

you try to blame somebody else for your lack in map creating ability... foul move.
 
**** you.

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#4
Let's not start a fight...

I would say it is possible to create a good map, and many times a flaw in a map is what makes it enjoyable and gives it character.
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#5
I completely disagree.

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#6
The maps are not the problem  but Bots are a bit difficult right now.  Other than Coop if you run custom or even stock maps the bots want to follow the real players and not follow the nav routes.  This causes them to do nothing but get in the way and often they get stuck.  The opposing team rarely leaves their own spawn.  

 

Why do the Ai behave this way on Insurgency?  I made CS:GO custom maps and after creating NAV routes for the map, the bots worked very well.  I understand the bot routes can be edited to make them better but has never been necessary for me in any other Source engine game.  

 

As a server operator bots are very important for traffic as empty servers stay empty and servers with players on draw more players.  Who wants to join a server just to sit and wait for another player?  Good, functioning bots allow a player to still enjoy the game until others join.  

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#7
Quote:I completely disagree.
 

which is something i think most here will do with you too.

 

not the bots fault you do not know how to use a stop watch to time your own movements.

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#8
So you think the bots (other than coop) work fine?

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#9
Quote:I completely disagree.
 

troll maybe?

 

for start, u ll have WAY MORE players than NWI had to test the maps inititally, as the early access wasnt as populated as the game is now.

 

with your behavior it is very unlikely that you ll find a network of players to testplay on your maps, something other map makers did achieve somehow.

 

these maps are different than cs maps and i dont see how you could really playtest them with bots, but whatever.
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#10
Well the bots are gonna get a lot better soon, so there's no real sense in arguing about this. Although we didn't use bots to help us test balance ourselves, I imagine they will certainly help level designers who don't have easy access to players. Although keep in mind, even with much more intelligent and functional bots, they still may behave differently than a human would.

Jeremy Blum
Founder & Game Director
New World Interactive
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#11
Thanks for the heads up.  I understand bots are never going to be perfect but its great to know the dev team is working on it.  

 

Once again, it is great to see the developers interacting with the community.   Big Grin

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#12
Hey.. Leave the bot alone. They have a hard time as it is.. poor bots...

 

I'm from the organisation "bots for better map makers".

 

We founded the organisation to keep bots away from crappy map makers like yourself.

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#13
Lots of shitposting here is.

 

It's fully possible to edit the bot-navigation file manually if there are areas that are problematic for bots, been in the Source enginge as far as I know since release, and expanded and somewhat refined for CS:GO. Bad bot behaviour is presumably a result of one not editing the walkable paths and other bot specific markers before releasing the map in question.

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#14
Well still Bots will never find all the little peek holes you can shoot through, e.g. district garage behind the palette.

 

And those spots are crucial for balancing issues. The movement in ins is far more complex than cs:go, except for corner jumping maybe. Their is so many positions with the stances, lean, and ironsight, and also bots dont have the visual behavior of a human.

 

With more evenly lighted maps as CS has them, this may not be an issue, but how would you playtest ministry sub level with bots??

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